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Author Topic: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.  (Read 23102 times)

Offline rr01

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2015, 08:21:20 PM »
My friend.  I learned in the Air Force that we all bleed red.  The color of a persons skin makes no difference to me.  It's was is inside of them that matters.
Very true but even the Air Force of the '70s was struggling with the societal issues of the day until, like the rest of the military action took the place of inaction and rhetoric. It was an awakening that we should never let happen again and I feel the current generation is faring much better.
That being said this topic is about freedom of speech and when it is or is not appropriate. I see very few Confederate flags on base these days mostly as appliques to vests on motorcyclists but the image there of the image of the motorcyclist. My concern is the atmosphere of the past week will mushroom into a banning of such images on base.
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Offline Wartime Collectables

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2015, 12:22:21 PM »
Put me firmly in line with the thoughts of Guppy35, he has said it more eloquently than I can.  Yes, the 'men of means' used the common man to fight their war as has often been the case and yes, there were a small percentage of African Americans that fought for the CSA or owned slaves.  But the bottom line is that I respect and honor the brave soldier of the Confederacy just as I honor the brave soldier of the Axis.  BUT the flag of the Third Reich, because of what it TRULY represents, doesn't fly in their honor in Germany, nor I believe does the Rising Sun in Japan and the Confederate battle flag does not belong on my state house in South Carolina.
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Offline rr01

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2015, 12:57:15 PM »
Unfortunately much of what is perceived is not entirely accurate though the reasons are better than originally thought.
For instance, there WAS  New Orleans Black brigade but it preceded the warormed for a different purpose.
Most Black slaveholders were freemen who bought their families out of bondage so they could all live together. Buying and "owning" their own familiy was the only way in most cases. However this was mostly done in the North where even then these people were subject to wrongful capture and sent south as runaways.
The Japanese flag has not changed in any way since before WWII. The naval flag is still flown aboard their ships.
The most visible symbol used by American hate groups is the American flag and the Pledge of Allegiance is required to be rote.
I don't believe the Confederate flag IS flown on the statehouse but on the grounds at a Confederate War Memorial. I suspect the legislation passed moving it from the statehouse to it's current location also contained wording changing the reason for i being where it is. No matter, it comes down to what the people of SC collectively decide.
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Offline ScottG

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2015, 09:08:12 PM »
Put me firmly in line with the thoughts of Guppy35, he has said it more eloquently than I can.  Yes, the 'men of means' used the common man to fight their war as has often been the case and yes, there were a small percentage of African Americans that fought for the CSA or owned slaves.  But the bottom line is that I respect and honor the brave soldier of the Confederacy just as I honor the brave soldier of the Axis.  BUT the flag of the Third Reich, because of what it TRULY represents, doesn't fly in their honor in Germany, nor I believe does the Rising Sun in Japan and the Confederate battle flag does not belong on my state house in South Carolina.


   Again, in regards to the flag, Germany adopted a solution for their veterans by allowing the national colors to be flown over graves and at cemeteries. The United States does not allow confederate veterans to be buried in national cemeteries and the US flag does not fly over confederate mass graves like Richmond's Hollywood Cemetery. Until we adopt a solution I maintain that these men should have the flag under which they served, represent their graves and their monuments.
   Removing it won't satisfy most in any event. They will just create another issue or focus on another silly thing from our past that has never affected them. Less than 24 hours after the recognition of same sex marriage, a wealthy gay couple filed a massive lawsuit because a church  has refused to marry them on religious grounds. So, they got their law, but it wasn't enough... I personally don't have an issue with them getting married, nor do I have an issue with a church  refusing to do the service. Its a two way street, yet most liberal progressives don't see that.
    The flag was ordered removed from the statehouse weeks ago by Governor Haley. This week a left wing radical idiot and her mouth breathing boyfriend climbed a monument in front of the statehouse and removed that flag. They were arrested and the flag was replaced as it should have been. It is a clear case of our 1st amendment and unless a law is passed that flag can fly just like old glory can burn at the hands of morons. A two way street fella's, like it or not. I am glad we can agree to disagree. On a side note, these flags are flying off the shelves and I suspect we will see even more than before.
    Scott
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Offline rr01

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2015, 10:09:18 PM »
The United States does not allow confederate veterans to be buried in national cemeteries.....
My apologies for offering this correction there is a very beautiful section of Arlington solely for Confederate soldiers & sailors. It is about 100 y/o but devoid of any flags. It has, instead a monument that is representative of the time but none of this ould have been possible without the approval of the federal gov't. It is hallowed ground as is the rest of Arlington and well worth the visit.
There are numerus other sites all across the conflicted states some holding just a few troops including a most interesting one north of Louisville, Ky containing the remains of about twenty Union soldiers who died of influenza. No battlefiled, just a place where they died. Yeah, I've digressed but there i so much history nd I apgize for that digression.
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Offline ScottG

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2015, 10:33:04 PM »
   I am aware of this section and it isn't devoid of flags as shown in the attached link: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/csa-mem.htm
   Again, its my point that they be buried under their flag unless the US changes the policy. As for this section, we need to understand the basic history of Arlington. This was Robert E. Lee's estate and it was thought at the time that burying the dead there would be a sort of punishment to the Lee family. These confederates were in Union hosptials etc... when they died and were interred. They were then ordered disinterred and later re-interred. So, yes they are there, under their flag at the appropriate times but still not recognized as US veterans.
   You will find cases of other confederate sections and interments in the north, but these are exceptions and none are considered US veterans. Hence my argument to let their flag fly or make other arrangements. I personally think that they would want their flag. Getting these things right goes a long way to overall reconciliation. Scott.
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Offline rr01

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2015, 12:05:01 PM »
   I am aware of this section and it isn't devoid of flags as shown in the attached link: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/csa-mem.htm
Thank you for the link and my apologies for my error. I had always read such was not allowed to occur and I had always accepted it as part of the victor over the vanquished. I am happy to see this update to the policy. Like you and many others we would like to see an aknowledgement which would be the same as the actual veterans of both sides eventually gave to each other.
In our recent history I have been personal witness to many similar reconciliations the most significant being in '95 when I spent a year travelling Japan videotaping the 50th anniversary of the closing battles of WWII in the Pacific. It was the last and biggest turnout of veterans of both sides since the war. What I witnessed was a universal embracing by both sides of each other as former warriors, a respect for each other only combat veterans can have. Sadly, I was also witness to the continued hatred of the Japanese by those who came to the battlefields of a dead Father. As in any conflict both sides are victorious in the survival and not much else, except how we return home and live our lives afterward.
Equally sad is the new lack of tolerance for something for which the signifigance means something different based on experience. Yes, the reason for the installation of the Confederate flag over the SC capitol back in the '60s was wrong but I believe that reason no longer the same. If anything we should learn from the acts of the murderer and work diligintly to correct such thinking. It is ironic that this guy had to go to a cemetery to find a flag to be photographed with; that he was so full of his own hate he could not recognize the purpose of the flags adorning those graves.
As this issue continues toward it's sad conclusion I have begun to wonder if a couple exceedingly popular theme parks in Ga & Tx will be boycotted until they are rebranded.
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Offline ScottG

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2015, 01:28:37 PM »
   I thought the same on the theme parks as well. I mentioned things like this early on such as Washington and Jefferson being slave owners, or Lincoln's actual views on the slavery issue. It why I believe that removing the flag is wrong. It doesn't end the issue or even solve the original problem. Those that claim offense will just move on to the next thing that allegedly offends them and it will never cease. I believe in the rights of all of our citizens and that they should be equal under the law. This means that as a northern white man of European lineage, I too have those rights. If some perceive me as having more rights due to my skin color or lineage, tough. My Fathers side is European, mostly German, Italian. My Mother was nearly all Cherokee. As a native American I am not offended because the local school uses and Indian head profile and calls themselves "The Warriors". I could care less about the Redskins, and the Braves or Indians. The trail of tears was a tragic event that didn't harm me in the least. I learned to understand it and to try to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Removing the American flag won't accomplish that any more than removing the confederate flag will end racism or murder.     Scott
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Offline Tom E. Gunn

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2015, 02:57:12 AM »
I'm obviously not an American so therefore have no dog in this fight. However, I've read all of the posts which actually provide an interesting insight to the American "psyche" concerning this issue and all of its related implications.

Flags are very emotive things. The symbol of a nation's pride to some but of oppression to others. Here in the UK we have the long-running issue of Ulster / N. Ireland. It's across the water in Ireland but is British territory and politically an integral part of the United Kingdom. However, as you know it has a long and bloody history because of the intense hatred between the Irish Republicans (largely Catholics) and Unionists /Loyalists ( largely protestants)  This resulted in what we called "the troubles", that period from the 1970s > 1997 when sectarian killings on the streets of N.Ireland were commonplace as the IRA sought to bring about an end to British rule and unify Ireland. Thus, the British Army was deployed there in order to maintain order and to defend the population from Republican terrorism. Of course, their terror campaign was exported to the British mainland too with many casualties and fatalities being caused by indiscriminate bombings...even the Royal Family and the British government of the day were targeted.

With the signing of the so-called "Peace Accords" in 1997, both sides agreed to implement a cease-fire and to settle their political differences peacefully by negotiation. Things have improved greatly since then. The killings have all but stopped but even today dissident Republicans still make occasional sporadic attacks on the security forces. However, there is still segregation between the Catholic and Republican populations with a "peace wall" separating some parts of the city of Belfast and a lingering sense of mutual distrust between both communities.

Which brings me to the subject of flags. N. Ireland, being a part of the UK, comes under the Union Flag (though there is also an Ulster Flag) Republicans favour the Irish tricolour which is liberally flown in Republican parts of the city! The Union Jack was naturally flown on government buildings...note my use of the word "was"!  Those with Republican leanings objected strongly to this. The city council subsequently took the controversial decision to only fly the Union Flag on 18 designated days per year, by way of a compromise. This lead to rioting on the streets and lots of civil unrest as the Loyalists protested about the treatment of their flag and their ability to freely fly it. The protests are less "dramatic" now, but they linger on. Like it or not, flags are a big deal!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 02:59:23 AM by Tom E. Gunn »
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Offline Fearless Leader

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2016, 09:28:08 PM »
I want to bring this thread BTT, as it is one of the best discussions that stays on topic, and is well thought out by those who contributed.

Great Job.
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Offline ScottG

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2016, 10:36:27 PM »
 In re-reading this thread I decided to go back and check some facts. I did it because there is a fairly new flap about WASPs not being allowed to be buried in Arlington. What I discovered is that they can be buried there as long as they meet the criteria that everyone else meets for interment. So, the do good media allowed a bunch of people to get fired up over partial information again!
    I also discovered that in 1959 the Department of veteran Affairs recognized Confederate service members as veterans. Widows were granted pensions, headstones were made available with the CSA replacing USA and burial allowances were paid for the installation of these headstones. So, we have a government that clearly identifies these men as veterans, yet they prohibit them from certain interments and certain honors. When it is fixed, it will go a long way to changing the perception of the Confederate flag. Until then, there will be bitterness and doubt as to why its being displayed.
    Again, we cannot afford to allow history to be written off because of sensitivities. As long as that c**t Beyoncé can go on national tv and honor the black panthers, ancestors of Confederate veterans should be allowed to honor their relatives in public. I truly think this nation has gone way out of its way to "make up" for social injustices and for what? The past can't be changed, all that can be done is move forward. We have MLK day, we have black history month, we have Black Entertainment Television, we have the BET Awards, the United Negro College Fund etc... I wonder, what if there was the white network, white history month, etc...It would be racist! Yet it isn't when the shoe is on the other foot. The double standard is so obvious, yet most are too afraid to say anything. We have become a nation of appeasers and lemmings and it makes me sick. The ones who cry the loudest for equality are afraid of it, Spike Lee doesn't want equality, he wants supremacy, his " I think more blacks should get Oscars" is garbage! Maybe they will when the movies are Oscar worthy, the head of the academy is black after all...
    I am truly tired of our loser government, our pussified liberals, and our entitlement without earning mentality. Its way past time for a change, and I just don't see anything good coming. I am truly sad for my country....  Deo Vindice!  Scott.
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Offline Dr. Davis

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2016, 08:03:11 AM »
A little off subject here, but alot of Germans love reenacting the Civil War, and the South is number one in their books, guess they like the underdogs.
This is just one website of many http://www.igreenactors.de/termine.html
Another ol' army buddy of mine, Atlanta, Georgia, also lives here in the same town as me, when we get together and have a couple beers, "the South rises again!". Reckon he's just a sore loser.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 08:05:41 AM by Dr. Davis »
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Offline Fearless Leader

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2016, 04:20:29 PM »
Scott, thank you for an EXCELLENT post. We cannot let our history be striped from us because of PC. Our history is about who we are, and what our country has gone through to establish itself. If we cleanse our history, what will be left for anyone to recognize?
Who came to these shores, why did they come, how did they come? Without our past, good or bad, how will we know what our nation is about. What we're about!  ???
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Offline Fearless Leader

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2016, 02:34:38 PM »
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Offline Fearless Leader

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2016, 09:12:31 PM »
BTT......great thread.
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