BannerFans.com

Author Topic: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.  (Read 11050 times)

Offline Pete-o MSU

  • PLANKOWNER
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 23
  • Total likes: 0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2017, 04:00:13 PM »
I have an opposing opinion on this. The Civil War was fought over slavery, saying anything else or trying to lessen the impact that slavery had on causing the war is being disingenuous. The war didn't start overnight. Every Congressional compromise from 1820-1850 revolved around slavery. There is plenty of available written information from individual States reasons for secession to Confederate leaders speeches to justify slavery as being the primary cause for the war. Saying otherwise or inflating the impact of other reasons for war is cleansing history.

Do I believe every individual confederate soldier's motivation was to fight for slavery? Absolutely not. A poor farmer from Virginia, for example, wasn't fighting to uphold slavery. But, Confederate leaders were. They were fighting to keep human beings of a different color in bondage, and they were fighting against the United States of America. After the war they continued their discrimination, Jim Crow.

Statues of Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens, Lee, etc need to come down. We don't need statutes to remember them or what they stood for. We won't forget. If you want to put up statues in places to commemorate battles and loss of soldiers lives on both sides I am fine with that.

Taking a statue down of Jefferson Davis, for example, doesn't erase this knowledge or history. It merely removes a person from a place of reverence, who in my opinion, based on their individual character does not belong there. Of course we could argue over who belongs or not , but this is my personal opinion.

Offline ScottG

  • MODERATOR
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 1,936
  • Total likes: 472
  • Referrals: 11
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2017, 04:33:59 PM »
I have an opposing opinion on this. The Civil War was fought over slavery, saying anything else or trying to lessen the impact that slavery had on causing the war is being disingenuous. The war didn't start overnight. Every Congressional compromise from 1820-1850 revolved around slavery. There is plenty of available written information from individual States reasons for secession to Confederate leaders speeches to justify slavery as being the primary cause for the war. Saying otherwise or inflating the impact of other reasons for war is cleansing history.

Do I believe every individual confederate soldier's motivation was to fight for slavery? Absolutely not. A poor farmer from Virginia, for example, wasn't fighting to uphold slavery. But, Confederate leaders were. They were fighting to keep human beings of a different color in bondage, and they were fighting against the United States of America. After the war they continued their discrimination, Jim Crow.

Statues of Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens, Lee, etc need to come down. We don't need statutes to remember them or what they stood for. We won't forget. If you want to put up statues in places to commemorate battles and loss of soldiers lives on both sides I am fine with that.

Taking a statue down of Jefferson Davis, for example, doesn't erase this knowledge or history. It merely removes a person from a place of reverence, who in my opinion, based on their individual character does not belong there. Of course we could argue over who belongs or not , but this is my personal opinion.

   Nothing wrong with an opposing view or opinion on this forum. That said and in the essence of fairness I think when discussing slavery as an issue, we need to look at it as such. Why was there a need for slave labor in the south? Where was the demand for so much cotton coming from? Was it the great southern textile mills? How about rice? Again, there was a demand but where did it come from? While the southern economy (individual states) certainly relied upon the exports of those commodities, where were they being exported to, who was the end user, and who really made the money? The answer is the north, England and its colonies and the new wealthy in America.
   I have maintained and always will, that it is wrong to own another person, and that Jim Crow laws were racist and wrong. But, those who pretend to have some moral high ground against Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, etc...having statues are one sided and wrong. What was Lincoln's views on slavery? He has a monument! What were Sherman's and Grant's? How about Washington's and Jefferson's? Should those statues and monuments be removed as well. I think as a nation we need to grow up a bit. Not everything Davis did was wrong, he served this nation in many exceptional capacities as did Washington or Lee or Grant. They were humans living in a different time under a different set of norms and mores.
   Yes, slavery was an issue, but there were more and without a doubt the continuation of slavery was abetted by the north. Slavery existed in America long before the confederacy and if you look into the later part of the 19th century, it still existed in other forms such as child labor, Chinese labor, and Irish labor.    Scott
Always looking for 32nd Division items and 13th Armored Division items. Please keep me in mind if you have any.

Offline Pete-o MSU

  • PLANKOWNER
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 23
  • Total likes: 0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2017, 05:23:53 PM »
Oh I agree Scott. For some reason nowadays everyone likes to only deal in absolutes. The answer isn't black and white...it's always gray.

I'm not trying to condemn every Southerner or say there were no racists in the North. There were plenty of racists in the North then and now. But, I think that fact needs to be acknowledged. Every person has their faults. The way American History is taught seems to avoid looking at any historical persons faults. You can't look at only the positive attributes of any of these historical figures and forget about their faults. Teddy Roosevelt for example I really like. The one thing that trips me up with him is that he almost always refers to Native Americans as savages.

People can also change. Look at James Longstreet for example, especially his post war time in New Orleans. But, are there statues of Longstreet in NO? I don't think so, is that because he was viewed as a traitor to the cause?

Like I said I'm not trying to deal in absolutes and I realize things are not simple. People need to have conversations like this nowadays.

Offline Pete-o MSU

  • PLANKOWNER
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 23
  • Total likes: 0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2017, 05:31:09 PM »
You can't separate slavery from the Civil War or race from American History. And I guess if the people who live in some of these Southern cities feel like Confederate leaders no longer represent their beliefs or values and they want to take them down I don't blame them. I don't necessarily think it is the destruction of history. It's complicated haha.

Offline Fearless Leader

  • ADMINISTRATOR
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 482
  • Total likes: 108
  • Referrals: 1
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2017, 05:34:32 PM »
I agree that the issue of salver was by far the biggest reason for the CW. But what happens after all of the monuments are remove? Will we have only the "victors" stories left to tell? The sad truth is that most high school and college students can't answer simple questions about the reason(s) for the war, let alone who fought in it.
My fear is that our nation will soon loose its heritage. We are a nation of storytellers, and in the future, who will tell the stories that are forgotten? It's a sad legacy.
THE ALLIED MILITARIA FORUM...... "The freedom forum"!
FREEDOM OF SPEECH.......FREEDOM FROM FEES.....FREEDOM FROM DONATIONS and SOLICITATION.

Offline Pete-o MSU

  • PLANKOWNER
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 23
  • Total likes: 0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2017, 05:54:57 PM »
I agree the story of the Confederacy needs to be told, but it needs to be taught objectively. I don't want to lose any history. There are lessons to be learned.

Offline Kohima

  • PLANKOWNER
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • ****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 855
  • Total likes: 134
  • Referrals: 1
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2017, 06:54:09 PM »
Storm's a brewin.





KTB
On the edge of a tennis court far, far from home, the Sgt. shouted: Son, pass me a grenade !  The Battle of Kohima. Naga Hills, 1944.

Valhalla I am coming !........Led Zeppelin

Offline ScottG

  • MODERATOR
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 1,936
  • Total likes: 472
  • Referrals: 11
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2017, 09:27:12 PM »
Oh I agree Scott. For some reason nowadays everyone likes to only deal in absolutes. The answer isn't black and white...it's always gray.

I'm not trying to condemn every Southerner or say there were no racists in the North. There were plenty of racists in the North then and now. But, I think that fact needs to be acknowledged. Every person has their faults. The way American History is taught seems to avoid looking at any historical persons faults. You can't look at only the positive attributes of any of these historical figures and forget about their faults. Teddy Roosevelt for example I really like. The one thing that trips me up with him is that he almost always refers to Native Americans as savages.

People can also change. Look at James Longstreet for example, especially his post war time in New Orleans. But, are there statues of Longstreet in NO? I don't think so, is that because he was viewed as a traitor to the cause?

   Well said, but look at the postwar history of General P.G.T. Beauregard. He HAD a statue in New Orleans until a couple of weeks ago and he was a post war champion for the blacks of the south. Now its gone, and why? Because some insecure ninny mayor who knows nothing about history wanted a soapbox to stand on and be heard! This is why it must stop, as said earlier by FL, when will the others fall and why? For political grandstanding and to further an already growing racial divide?   Scott
Like I said I'm not trying to deal in absolutes and I realize things are not simple. People need to have conversations like this nowadays.
Always looking for 32nd Division items and 13th Armored Division items. Please keep me in mind if you have any.

Offline Jack's son

  • PLANKOWNER
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 2,296
  • Total likes: 208
  • Referrals: 2
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2017, 07:37:02 AM »

Storm's a brewin.

KTB

I don't think so Kohima. This thread has been very civil, and responses have been well thought out. The credit goes to the contributing members!!
And once by God, I was a Marine!
—Actor Lee Marvin, circa, 1967, about serving in WW II

Offline ScottG

  • MODERATOR
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • ***
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 1,936
  • Total likes: 472
  • Referrals: 11
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2017, 12:17:03 AM »
   Tragic events in Virginia Saturday. The removal of history and heritage and much of the false rhetoric surrounding it has drawn the worst on both sides of the issue and now lives were lost. No excuses for the white supremist groups, but I understand that they pulled a permit to gather. ANTIFA did not, yet they seem to get a pass for inciting a violent riot...I hope all is taken into consideration when charges are brought and the final blame is assigned.  Scott
Always looking for 32nd Division items and 13th Armored Division items. Please keep me in mind if you have any.

Offline Pete-o MSU

  • PLANKOWNER
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 23
  • Total likes: 0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2017, 08:54:52 AM »
If you think having new-nazis, clansman, and alt-right figures with tiki torches defending Confederate statues is helping preserve history...I don't know really what to say.

Someone once told me anything that comes before the word but is meaningless.

This is  only going to accelerate the removal of Confederate statues.

I do not condone any violence for any political purpose, by anyone.

The greatest generation who's history I collect and preserve gave their lives defending freedom against racism, fascism, and anitsemitism. Seeing groups like this exist in America today personally sickens me. Anyone who makes excuses for any of these groups or supports racist rhetoric is no friend of mine.

I feel like this is a good final post for me on this forum. Best wishes to all.

Peter



Offline Pete-o MSU

  • PLANKOWNER
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 23
  • Total likes: 0
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2017, 09:06:07 AM »
To be clear I am not calling Scott a racist.

 I'm just saying in general no excuses should be made for racism/racists. And again no violence by anyone is acceptable.

Pete

Offline Kohima

  • PLANKOWNER
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • ****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 855
  • Total likes: 134
  • Referrals: 1
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2017, 11:03:20 AM »
Simple solution. Stop removing the monuments.




KTB
On the edge of a tennis court far, far from home, the Sgt. shouted: Son, pass me a grenade !  The Battle of Kohima. Naga Hills, 1944.

Valhalla I am coming !........Led Zeppelin

Offline Jerry BB

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • ***
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 180
  • Total likes: 86
  • Referrals: 0
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2017, 01:57:51 PM »
it seems that more than the removal of the monuments was motivating some who were attending the protests.  not just the poster, but anti Semitic chants which don't seem to get much notice here, apart from a mention by Peter.  I have mentioned previously that my wife has ancestors who fought for the south and also in the revolt before that, but she also has Jewish ancestors and the whole thing is a mess.

 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 01:59:49 PM by Jerry BB »
Regards,

Jerry BB.

Offline Fearless Leader

  • ADMINISTRATOR
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2014
  • Posts: 482
  • Total likes: 108
  • Referrals: 1
Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2017, 05:25:13 PM »

I feel like this is a good final post for me on this forum. Best wishes to all.

Peter

I am sorry to see Peter go, his viewpoint has always been welcome. Whether one agrees with each viewpoint or not, we all have the right to share our opinion. Without discussion, agree or not, this Would cease to be a "FORUM".

I ask you to reconsider my friend.
THE ALLIED MILITARIA FORUM...... "The freedom forum"!
FREEDOM OF SPEECH.......FREEDOM FROM FEES.....FREEDOM FROM DONATIONS and SOLICITATION.

 

BannerFans.com