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Author Topic: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.  (Read 9150 times)

Offline Jack's son

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The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« on: June 25, 2015, 02:30:55 PM »
This is a topic that has to be of interest to all Americans. As material of discussion, this topic did not fare well on one forum,(topic closed) and is still open for discussion on another.
I mention this because our forum is free to discuss any topic worthwhile discussing, and this topic has yet to come up.

This overreaction is part of a movement that is bent on changing the history of our country. Trying to wipe out the memory of a piece of our history, will never change the attitudes of people who make up this society. It will never change racial intolerance, on either side, nor stop hate, or stop killing.
This country will never last long enough to grow out of the way people think or feel. People are people, and people wil always find ways to hate and kill other people.

Now, having said my piece, let's hope we can have a discussion that does not get into name callin. Let's just express our thoughts, and let others express theirs.

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Offline F-102

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2015, 04:41:05 PM »
If we as civilized people think that eliminating the flags, medals, uniforms, pictures and artifacts of a sensitive event makes it better or easier to live with, think again. The truth is never pretty, nor is reality. The images of war, slavery or tyranny is never something we want to view, but to face an issue is the first step to prevention. History must be remembered and understood. To censor it is to prepare ourselves for the repeat of it.
A symbol, flag, picture, patch can always incite negativity to the uneducated, but to those who care to stare the truth in the face and look beyond the rhetoric, comes a path to peace and understanding.
Just my feelings on the subject.
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Offline M1Ashooter

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 07:12:20 PM »
I am not a son of the South, I was born and raised in NJ.  Having said that I have become a Southerner by choice as Texas is my home.  The history of the War of Northern Aggression will only fade in the south when all people who were born and raised here are dead which aint going to happen no matter how hopeful some left minded thinkers are.

The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia will live on as well as the monuments to the CSA leaders and soldiers in southern states and there isn't anything some one from NJ can do about it.

The image of this flag is part. I dare say of the DNA of every soldier, sailor, marine and airman that are from southern states.  It is an example of courage, hardship and sacrifice. I just saw some 2007 statistics that show 42% of all military recruits are from the former states of the CSA and they included WV and OK in this mix.  These people will not let their history be forgotten.

I once saw an interview of a black political leader from South Carolina.  He must be Ian's age.  Actually he was in his early seventies at the time.  The liberal interviewer has trying to bait him about how indignant he should be that, at the time the Battle Flag was being flown over the state capital.  His response was simple.  He said he didn't think it should fly over the capital, but he said you have to remember that the great grand fathers of many of the men in business and power in this state were soldiers in the CSA armies.  These are the great grand sons of the men who fired on Fort Sumter and they know it.  Change will have to come very slowly.

So I say bolder dash to some peoples thoughts that the CSA is disappearing.  Some tid bits will be thrown to the media and thats about it.

We will smile, and say God Bless your little heart and then sip on some sweet tea and hum Dixie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__kQX12S9YI&list=PLmT1W7DxwE9_FWc3XFZd2PQleHdJX__yi&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HeZtFH1Trg

Also there aren't enough people with balls or guns that can change a  Southerns mind.

At least thats my humble opinion.


« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 07:14:58 PM by M1Ashooter »

Offline ScottG

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 09:33:46 PM »
 I too am a northern born American, but my relatives fought for the south and I am proud of their service. Why? They were poor sharecroppers for the most part. They could not afford slaves, but they knew the value of freedom and inalienable rights. They believed in supporting their states over the federal government and they served with honor and distinction by all accounts that I have read and heard.
 The big issue I have with what's happening here is the total disregard for REAL history. Did the south ratify the Missouri Compromise? Did the south uphold the and pass the fugitive slave act unilaterally? Where did the decision to keep slavery legal occur? Was it solely a southern decision or did northern politicians play a role? Was any of this vetoed by a President? Was any of it overturned by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional? I think you all know the answers...
  So, a messed up kid wearing a jacket with the former flags of South Africa and Rhodesia gets the Confederate battle flag declared a symbol of slavery and racism? Instead of calling the kid a murderer we blame a symbol. It makes no sense at all. Now there are petitions to remove the monuments from Richmond Virginias Monument Avenue? I wonder how many of these morons know that one of those monuments is the gay, black former tennis champ Arthur Ash?
   There is another movement to change the names of all military bases named after Confederates. Again, how many of the race baiter morons realize that these same men were West Point Graduates and hero's of the Mexican War? How many really know the difference between a battle flag and the flag of the CSA? To me they are all American's and they served this country well when asked. when secession occurred they called themselves the Confederate States of AMERICA! They felt as strong about their freedom as did their forefathers in the Revolution. The issue of slavery was but a small part of a much larger picture regardless of what is said by revisionists.
    I really hope people wake up and see that it wasn't a flag that caused this. Until that happens the problem will never go away.  Scott.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 09:58:06 PM »
I will do my best to not get in trouble.  What that flag represents to many people is not the noble sons of the south rising up against northern tyranny.  It represents a time of slavery to many.  It's the stand in for the swastika to many.

It is not representative of this country or the states that have flown it over their capitals.  Understand that the flag in South Carolina went up in the early 1960s as the Dixiecrats response to the Civil Rights movement.  It's not like it had been there since the 1860's.

They don't fly swastikas in Germany over government buildings to remember the soldiers who fought during WW2.  That doesn't mean the history has been forgotten.  No one is going to stop the guys refighting the Civil War in their repro uniforms from carrying a southern battle flag.

Please don't pretend however that slavery wasn't at the core of the Civil War and that flag doesn't represent the desire of the south to continue slavery.  Please go read the Decleration of Causes written by the southern states.  I would suggest starting with Texas too btw.

Their reasoning for leaving the union is very clear.  That was the cause that flag was flown for. 

Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015, 10:04:21 PM »
The following is from the Texas Decleration of Causes written just prior to the war.

"In view of these and many other facts, it is meet that our own views should be distinctly proclaimed.

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states."


Tell me again why that flag ever flew over a state capital after the civil war ended and the south surrendered.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2015, 10:14:58 PM »
Mississippi was quite clear as well

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove"

Offline ScottG

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2015, 11:05:40 PM »
  Some good info on the position of those states Guppy, but we must understand that those statements were made by politicians who were men of means. Men of means could own slaves, the average southern soldier could not and did not. Their issue was states rights of which slavery was a part of. History is good and bad, and we have the benefit of hindsight. Those living it in the Civil War relied on a system of norms and mores that as a society we have outgrown. England had outlawed slavery well before our own American Revolution, yet they supported  the south.
   You did an  exemplary job on quoting some of the reasons the states seceded, how about sharing Abraham Lincoln's views on slavery? If this flag should be removed from our society because it represents slavery, then perhaps we need to tear down the Lincoln, Jefferson and Washington Monuments? After all two of them were slave owners and one issued a proclamation freeing southern slaves in a time of war to burden the enemy, not to improve the lot of his fellow man.
    I believe that the Nazi flag represents an evil that happened on our planet. It doesn't offend me as a flag but what it represents is an affront to my beliefs and I am glad it doesn't fly over government buildings. I also believe that anyone involved in the holocaust has just cause to be offended and fearful.
    I think that this country has many thousands of service members that are ignored because they fought for the south. Many of them also served in the Mexican War and in other capacities before and even after secession. Look up General Joe Wheeler... If placing a battle flag on a government building can honor that service, then its o.k. by me. Just because it may have originated on some of these buildings as a symbol of segregation, doesn't mean it has to stay that way. Should the graves of fallen confederates not be recognized with a flag? Should that flag be Old Glory or the flag they fought under? Germany uses the current flag for WWII graves/cemeteries.
    People on both sides need to find common ground and destroying one sides heritage to appease another isn't common ground. The situation will only inflame more hatred. These are knee jerk decisions that will not end well for either side of the debate. Many southern blacks would be fine with meeting in the middle on this as would many whites. There is a way and this recent series of rash decisions isn't it.
     Bottom line here is that the flag is inanimate and therefore cannot be racist nor be a murderer. Dylan Roof on the other hand is human and can be both a racist and a murderer. Put Roof on trial for his crimes and let the confederates rest in peace under their flag as they have paid for their decisions.     Scott
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Offline Jack's son

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2015, 06:10:17 AM »
Absolutely GREAT thought is being put forth in this discussion!!
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2015, 08:32:38 AM »
Scott, the rebel flag was not put up on the South Carolina capital to honor the confederate dead.  It was put up by men of means in the early 1960s as a sign of thier rejection of civil rights laws.  It was in effect thier way of giving the finger to those pushing for civil rights for all.

As for honoring the dead, in my mind it would be the flag of the United States as they are Americans after all is said and done.

And if we are going to use the swastika comparison, which is valid, we have to remember that the south lost the war so that flag should not fly.  Your argument about what flag flies over the graves of German dead is the perfect example as is your argument that just as many of those men fought for Germany not for the ideology of the men who led them but for country.  They saw the swastika as representing thier country.  Letting that flag continue to fly would be an affront to those who fought and died to liberate Germany and Europe from that ideology just as the rebel flag is an affront to every US soldier who died to free the south from thier misguided ideology regarding slavery.

The states rights argument is solely based on thier belief in the states right to allow slavery.  That's akin to Germany writing laws to allow them to persecute the Jews and dehumanize them just as the south did regarding African Americans.

Using Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson etc is irrelevant to the discussion.  The South went to war because it wanted to protect what it believed was a states right to allow slavery and it was angry at the north for not supporting that.  This included thier anger at the north for not returning escaped slaves, and not allowing the upper crust of southern society to bring along slaves to take care of them when they visited places like New York.  They saw blacks as subhuman and nothing more than tools for thier economy.

How that is less of an affront to humanity than the holocaust is beyond me.

Offline M1Ashooter

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2015, 09:59:20 AM »
There is no doubt in my highly educated mind that the raising of the Battle Flag over some capitals was an act of defiance forced by their dislike of directions of the Federal Gov't over the Civil Rights movement.  It was wrong to treat our citizens like that in the south but me must also remember the lot of the Black man and Women in the north was not great either.  Prejudice was and still is very real today.

This topic has made me research, who owned slaves and I was shocked to see that Black men in Southern states owned and traded slaves up to the civil war.  I guess its a part of that nasty history that people don't want to know about.

Here is one article I read.

In a fascinating essay reviewing this controversy, R. Halliburton shows that free black people have owned slaves "in each of the thirteen original states and later in every state that countenanced slavery," at least since Anthony Johnson and his wife Mary went to court in Virginia in 1654 to obtain the services of their indentured servant, a black man, John Castor, for life.

And for a time, free black people could even "own" the services of white indentured servants in Virginia as well. Free blacks owned slaves in Boston by 1724 and in Connecticut by 1783; by 1790, 48 black people in Maryland owned 143 slaves. One particularly notorious black Maryland farmer named Nat Butler "regularly purchased and sold Negroes for the Southern trade," Halliburton wrote.

Perhaps the most insidious or desperate attempt to defend the right of black people to own slaves was the statement made on the eve of the Civil War by a group of free people of color in New Orleans, offering their services to the Confederacy, in part because they were fearful for their own enslavement: "The free colored population [native] of Louisiana … own slaves, and they are dearly attached to their native land … and they are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana … They will fight for her in 1861 as they fought [to defend New Orleans from the British] in 1814-1815." 

These guys were, to put it bluntly, opportunists par excellence: As Noah Andre Trudeau and James G. Hollandsworth Jr. explain, once the war broke out, some of these same black men formed 14 companies of a militia composed of 440 men and were organized by the governor in May 1861 into "the Native Guards, Louisiana," swearing to fight to defend the Confederacy. Although given no combat role, the Guards -- reaching a peak of 1,000 volunteers -- became the first Civil War unit to appoint black officers.

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 When New Orleans fell in late April 1862 to the Union, about 10 percent of these men, not missing a beat, now formed the Native Guard/Corps d'Afrique to defend the Union. Joel A. Rogers noted this phenomenon in his 100 Amazing Facts: "The Negro slave-holders, like the white ones, fought to keep their chattels in the Civil War." Rogers also notes that some black men, including those in New Orleans at the outbreak of the War, "fought to perpetuate slavery.

Offline ScottG

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2015, 11:06:23 AM »
Scott, the rebel flag was not put up on the South Carolina capital to honor the confederate dead.  It was put up by men of means in the early 1960s as a sign of thier rejection of civil rights laws.  It was in effect thier way of giving the finger to those pushing for civil rights for all.

As for honoring the dead, in my mind it would be the flag of the United States as they are Americans after all is said and done.

And if we are going to use the swastika comparison, which is valid, we have to remember that the south lost the war so that flag should not fly.  Your argument about what flag flies over the graves of German dead is the perfect example as is your argument that just as many of those men fought for Germany not for the ideology of the men who led them but for country.  They saw the swastika as representing thier country.  Letting that flag continue to fly would be an affront to those who fought and died to liberate Germany and Europe from that ideology just as the rebel flag is an affront to every US soldier who died to free the south from thier misguided ideology regarding slavery.

The states rights argument is solely based on thier belief in the states right to allow slavery.  That's akin to Germany writing laws to allow them to persecute the Jews and dehumanize them just as the south did regarding African Americans.

Using Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson etc is irrelevant to the discussion.  The South went to war because it wanted to protect what it believed was a states right to allow slavery and it was angry at the north for not supporting that.  This included thier anger at the north for not returning escaped slaves, and not allowing the upper crust of southern society to bring along slaves to take care of them when they visited places like New York.  They saw blacks as subhuman and nothing more than tools for thier economy.

How that is less of an affront to humanity than the holocaust is beyond me.

   I realize why the flag was flown in South Carolina in the 60s, my point was that the connotation can be changed an should be changed. If the south needs to get over losing the war, then the blacks need to get over past civil injustice. Its a two way street and there are none living  who were slaves.
   As  for the American flag flying over Confederate graves, it isn't allowed per se. Confederate soldiers are not recognized as veterans by the VA who controls national cemeteries so their graves are generally cared for by groups like the SCV etc... in private cemeteries. So until something changes at the higher level, as in Germany, then they should rest under the flag for which they served.
    Using Washington and Jefferson is relevant as we are discussing removing something that is offensive due to slavery. So, why not remove those monuments as they were established slave owners. On his death bed Thomas Jefferson did not free his slaves... The problem again, is we have the benefit of hindsight. Guys like Jefferson were liberal for their time and sought to make the U.S. a place for freedom as they understood it and within the social norms that they lived by. He was very enlightened by the standards of the time, just not by ours, nor will we be by others in 100 years...
     So, I agree to disagree. Ultimately as I mentioned above, the flag didn't commit this crime. Flying it in public is a simple expression of 1st Amendment rights as of this day and I see no issue with it in the proper context. I do not support the Klan, or any other hate group, but I do appreciate my countries history of which this flag is a part.    Scott.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2015, 04:10:59 PM »
Scott the issue of civil in justice is hardly in the past.  I'll expand on this later when I get a chance.

As for the flag are you suggesting you'd be ok with swastika flags being placed on the graves of German soldiers? 

Understand I'm not advocating for erasing the south from history.  The flag issue is vey clear to me.  A state government represents all its people.  To fly that flag is an affront to many in the states where it was flown.  Removing it from government property is the right thing to do.  The knee jerk reaction is from both sides with the rest of it.  And with every overreaction things will calm and the end of the world will not happen. 

Offline F-102

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2015, 04:25:22 PM »
If a German soldier, pilot or sailor fought and believed in the Swastika, then I would have no issue with it being flown over their final resting place.  Likewise if a confederate soldier is buried in a US Cemetery I would have no issue with the Confederate flag being flown over their grave.
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Offline ScottG

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015, 10:15:32 PM »
Scott the issue of civil in justice is hardly in the past.  I'll expand on this later when I get a chance.

As for the flag are you suggesting you'd be ok with swastika flags being placed on the graves of German soldiers? 

Understand I'm not advocating for erasing the south from history.  The flag issue is vey clear to me.  A state government represents all its people.  To fly that flag is an affront to many in the states where it was flown.  Removing it from government property is the right thing to do.  The knee jerk reaction is from both sides with the rest of it.  And with every overreaction things will calm and the end of the world will not happen.

   I am not advocating the Nazi flag for German WWII graves. I was pointing out that in Germany they have a solution which is that the current flag is flying over those cemeteries/graves. In the U.S. that is not the case in regards to confederate graves. Since they are not recognized as veterans under the law, they cannot be buried in national cemeteries, there are of course a few exceptions such as General Joe Wheeler who is buried at Arlington because of his service in the Spanish-American War and in congress. Where the hypocrisy comes in is with men like Lee, Longstreet, Armistead, etc... These men served the U.S. in the Mexican War and with great distinction. They later served what was called the Confederate States of AMERICA. They and their government considered themselves patriots and Americans, yet because the flag of the CSA or the Army of Northern Virginia is flown as a sign of remembrance, that service is now being diminished or even twisted.
    Do you honestly think that Robert E. Lee had the issue of slavery on his mind as he led his troops in combat? I think he was most certainly aware of the issue as were all others in that time period, but it wasn't his motivation for leaving the U.S. Army. His speech to the Virginia House as well as his resignation to Lincoln after being asked to assume command of the Army of the Potomac are well documented and ultimately it was his loyalty to Virginia that led to his decision. So, in my opinion he and the majority of the others who served in the CSA military deserve the honor of having their flag be an ever present part of our history.
     As said in Mississippi this week, if the people decide in a referendum to remove the flag, then so be it. Until then it will fly. What needs to change is how it is represented. Those states that use it on government buildings need to clarify that it is in honor of the soldiers who fought for the CSA and their individual states, and not as a sign or symbol of Jim Crow laws, segregation, racism etc... No one alive today has been a slave under the confederacy. Yes, some groups use that flag in their racist literature and gatherings, but if you look at many of the current groups like the KKK, Aryan Nations, etc... they also use the American Flag.
    Black Panthers are offensive to me, but I feel they have a right to assemble and exercise free speech. Al Sharpton, one of the biggest race baiters is offensive to me, but I am not out to ban him. I fully realize the scope of civil injustice as a social worker, but to take the past injustice's of one group and place them on another solves nothing. To wait 150 years to do it is just ludicrous. The Nisei got it right when they petitioned as a group to have recompense for internment in WWII. They did it right and they won. Again, no one alive today has a legitimate claim for damages because of slavery. No one to my knowledge has been harmed by a flag, and everyone has the right to leave a state for any reason they choose. So, if the confederate flag in Mississippi or any other state is so offensive, then leave... If looking at a flag causes a person so much trauma and misery, then I would expect that they are a 1st generation survivor of whatever horrible event that flag represents. If they are not, then grow up, go about your life and deal with it as it has caused you no harm.
    The context in which this flag issue has taken root, is so twisted that it just makes no sense. A deranged boy killed innocent people in a church. He needs to be accountable, not Jefferson Davis, not Robert E. Lee, not the government of present day South Carolina, and not even the current head of the KKK. Removing the flags just incites further unrest, as does damaging statues and monuments. And don't get me going on "black lives matter" as I am sick of that. ALL LIVES MATTER and respect is the key to understanding.
     Scott.
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