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Author Topic: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.  (Read 18955 times)

Offline M1Ashooter

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2015, 09:39:17 AM »
And here we ago again.  The debate on the flag is just like the debates that led up to the split of the states leading up to the Civil War.  Let the people of the states that fly the flag decide what they want to do.  It is the American way.  As a Texan I don't tell the state of NJ how they over tax and over regulate everything.  Its not my place to do so.  I think everyone should mind there own business and police their own house before they bother their neighbors.

In context the states that made up the CSA did secede did so over States Rights and the Slavery issue was one of those rights.  Flying the Flag is a minor issue being used to cover the courts ruling on gay marriage etc etc.

If the people want to fly that flag in South Caroline then its their choice and if people from Yankee States keep trying to interferer with the business of others they will find that they will make very little headway.  Heck I might have to fly to NJ and plant the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia on one of those monuments to Union troops in one of those town squares that the residents don't even know what it is or why its there any more.   

Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2015, 08:40:36 PM »
So you are suggesting that it should have been the rights of the states to decide if they continued slavery?

Just because that's the way it was, doesn't mean it was the way it should be.  Might as well go back to separate but equal then?  That's the way it was.  It was the tradition.  How about segregating the Armed Forces.  Sports teams maybe?  Might as well take the vote from women then.

Sometimes progress and growing up as a country involves moving outside the majority's comfort zone to be more representative and inclusive of all, not just those that fit traditions profile.

I apparently had a post of mine removed where I spoke of this.  But I'm speaking as a white father with a white son and a black son. Things were a lot easier when I was only living in that white suburban world in regards to my kids.  When I see the reaction to my second son, and realize the world he'll have to navigate and how it will be different than his white big brother, I know we're not there yet and anything that helps make his life better is a good thing, and that includes the symbols that represent a time where the world thought my son was less then human and only good for working in the hot sun, merely a tool for the economy without rights or representation.

Offline ScottG

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2015, 12:43:54 AM »
  Guppy, your argument makes perfect sense from an emotional view. As a Father you want the best for your children, and you want them well adjusted and secure. I am there as well, and while I truly respect that, I think that going back to the original discussion, you have made my case.
 1) Removal of the confederate flag by states, corporations, dealers, and perhaps the federal government is a knee jerk reaction to a horrific event. Compromise and common sense are the answers.
 2) If the flag must be removed then why not Jefferson and Washington's monuments? They owned slaves they must be racists and as such just as tied to the murders as the flag right? I mean, Dylann Roof surely had a dollar, quarter or nickel on him when he was arrested thus incriminating the former Presidents right?
 3) You don't want you Son to see symbols that represent a time when the world  thought of him as less than human. I am here to tell you that slavery existed a hell of a lot longer under the star and stripes than under the stars and bars. It wasn't the confederacy that came up with the 3/5 compromise. But you have clearly stated that you hold the confederate flag as being the issue.
   I have maintained that the removal is wrong and solves nothing. When its gone, there will be something new that is "offensive" to the race baiters. Do you want it to be the monuments of our founding fathers? The Iwo monument because of the military still being segregated? Cotton in general? Old Glory? Where will it end?
    I don't like racism, I don't support slavery, but I have served this country to uphold my beliefs which lie in those first 10 amendments. Our inalienable rights, and I maintain that under the 1st amendment that flag can fly.    Scott.
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Offline m151mp

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2015, 07:41:43 AM »
i wasn't born in the US, i emigrated here, so it's fair to say i don't have a dog in this fight. except to the degree that it affects me today, which is that i have some concerns over people behaving as though removing a flag will solve some over arching problem. i don't think it will solve anything. if every last vestige of the civil war disappeared today, the activists would simply find something else that offended them. there are some people who are never going to be satisfied, and must go from one issue to the next, for reasons that matter to them. right now there is a murderer named roof sitting in a cell, and anyone who thinks he committed this crime because of that flag is, in my view, mistaken. the american flag has been getting a lot of abuse and desecration lately, yet i see no groundswell to put a stop to that. lots of folks are saying that it must be allowed, that's the first amendment in action. so why doesn't the first amendment apply here to this flag? when i was in vietnam, people were here marching in the streets carrying the flags of the VC and the NVA. same argument happened, folks said we had to allow it, it's the first amendment. why doesn't that apply to the confederate flag? no one alive today was ever a slave under that flag, but lots of guys alive today fought the NVA and the VC tooth and nail. i'm a lot more hot under the collar about those flags flying in this country, than anyone will ever be about the confederate flag, i guarantee you. so would some one here please give me a solid reason as to why the first amendment protected the VC and the NVA, our enemies who were killing us AT THE TIME, but should not be used to protect the confederate flag. i though the idea behind the first amendment was to protect speech that was political, or unpopular, or both?
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Offline M1Ashooter

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2015, 08:47:07 AM »
So you are suggesting that it should have been the rights of the states to decide if they continued slavery?

My simple answer is YES.  I'm not saying slavery is right but I believe it is the right of the people that live in a states  to determine their laws and fate.  I'm pro death penalty and pro life also, but I don't tell states that don't have a death penalty or different abortion laws that they are wrong because its none of my business what they do.

This is a very interesting topic as I've decided to learn more about why the War of Northern Aggression started.  I've never been very interested in the period of our history.  For example I didn't know this:

The Constitution of the United States was drafted in 1787, and included several provisions regarding slavery. Section 9 of Article I forbade the Federal government, from banning the "importation" of persons that an individual state's laws considered "proper to admit" until January 1, 1808, though a tax of ten dollars each was allowed (and which was immediately imposed, after ratification). Article V prohibited amending those portions of Section 9 before 1808. By prohibiting Federal banning of the slave trade for two decades, Article V effectively protected the trade until 1808, giving the States 20 years to resolve this issue. During that time, planters in states of the Lower South imported tens of thousands of slaves, more than during any previous two decades in colonial history.[35]

As further protection for slavery, the delegates approved Section 2 of Article IV, which prohibited states from freeing slaves who fled to them from another state, and required the return of chattel property to owners.

In a section negotiated by James Madison of Virginia, Section 2 of Article I designated "other persons" (slaves) to be added to the total of the state's free population, at the rate of three-fifths of their total number, to establish the state's official population for the purposes of apportionment of Congressional representation and federal taxation.[36]This increased the power of southern states in Congress for decades, affecting national policies and legislation.[37] The planter elite dominated the southern Congressional delegations and the United States presidency for nearly 50 years.

As our Constitution was being written it clearly allowed provisions for what the leaders of Southern States wanted in order for them to agree to their joining a Union of States.  If these provisions were not included then I doubt that Southern States would have signed the papers to form the United States of America.

This is a great history lesson for all of us.  In many ways we have a mini study going on today with the topics of our times such as Gun Control, Gay Rights, and an over reaching Federal Gov't etc.  The funny thing is it would appear that those former states of the CSA are in the fore front of the resistance to these issues. 

For those who are actively posting to this thread I thank you as a fellow country men.  Remember if this was the Soviet Union, China we couldn't do this and too my friends at the NSA please update my file.

Offline m151mp

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2015, 09:03:34 AM »
nothing in my post was intended, nor should it be construed as supporting slavery. my question boils down to why one offensive flag was protected and the other was not.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2015, 09:48:57 AM »
i wasn't born in the US, i emigrated here, so it's fair to say i don't have a dog in this fight. except to the degree that it affects me today, which is that i have some concerns over people behaving as though removing a flag will solve some over arching problem. i don't think it will solve anything. if every last vestige of the civil war disappeared today, the activists would simply find something else that offended them. there are some people who are never going to be satisfied, and must go from one issue to the next, for reasons that matter to them. right now there is a murderer named roof sitting in a cell, and anyone who thinks he committed this crime because of that flag is, in my view, mistaken. the american flag has been getting a lot of abuse and desecration lately, yet i see no groundswell to put a stop to that. lots of folks are saying that it must be allowed, that's the first amendment in action. so why doesn't the first amendment apply here to this flag? when i was in vietnam, people were here marching in the streets carrying the flags of the VC and the NVA. same argument happened, folks said we had to allow it, it's the first amendment. why doesn't that apply to the confederate flag? no one alive today was ever a slave under that flag, but lots of guys alive today fought the NVA and the VC tooth and nail. i'm a lot more hot under the collar about those flags flying in this country, than anyone will ever be about the confederate flag, i guarantee you. so would some one here please give me a solid reason as to why the first amendment protected the VC and the NVA, our enemies who were killing us AT THE TIME, but should not be used to protect the confederate flag. i though the idea behind the first amendment was to protect speech that was political, or unpopular, or both?

No one here is suggesting the confederate flag be completely banned.  It's removal from government buildings that represent all groups in that state is appropriate.  If you want on in your front yard that's on you and I would agree that would be your first Ammendment right.  You as an individual don't speak for everyone in your state.   At the next reenactment of a Civil War battle I'd fully expect to see confederate flags.  They are appropriate to representing the history of that time.   Again that's not the same was waving that flag over a government building of this time representing the people of this time.

If a company chooses to not sell confederate flags, that is thier choice just as it would be if they decide to sell those flags.  A company is not a government entity representing all.  The fall out good or bad from that choice is theirs to decide as is it the individual who buys from those companies.

Separate out what is appropriate for state governments vs private companies and individuals.  Don't overreact to the extremes from either side of the argument.  I see folks here arguing about protecting freedom of expression at the same time complaining about the freedom of expression going on in the country right now as it debates the issue.

Bottom line is a state government speaks for all it's people, not just those with means.  As such removing a flag that is offensive to many of its people is the right thing to do.  It can serve its purpose as a part of history through how individuals and groups decide to use it.  If the goal is to remove the hate from it, put your energies into ripping into those groups that have co-opted it for thier own hateful efforts.

They are to blame not those who are revolted by what it has been used to represent

Offline rr01

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2015, 02:21:46 PM »
Let's see if I can get to the end of this without any more hiccups.
Forget the symbols of hate including the most onerous one embraced exclusively by American hate groups, the American flag. Forget about the guns because as we all know, in other countries it's much, much different {The only way to stop a bad guy with a machete is a good guy with a machete}. Focus on the hate. The ignorant hate of one tribe over another that choked African rivers with corpses less than  generation ago. The ignorant hate of those who seek religious suprmacy under a black flag. The ignorant hate of the gov't by recent anarchists. It is the hate. Eliminating symbols will not stop the hate.
I am completely unashamed of my birth home of Sumter, SC. I was not raised there but my Grandparents spent their adult lives and are buried there after fleeing their home state of Mo less than a century ago. White people fleeing a state such as Mo? Yep, when a Jew marries a Catholic it is sometimes worse than mixing the races.
The South I knew in the '50s & '60s was homogenous but as a kid who only visited I didn't know much more. The neighbor boys were my introduction to institutional segregation but it is obvious to me now this was more peer pressure than upbringing. Yep, the ignorance of peer pressure along with the local attitude was completely foreign to me but in my rebellious teens I adopted the very flag that is now the wrong focus of this issue about hate.
My purchase of that flag at one of those southern textile outlets of the '60s was the beginning of my approach to life, to look askance at things and to challenge the status quo {we didn't yet have a purple dinosaur to be another focus of hate}. My Father allowed me unlimited display of that flag as long as it stayed in the box under my bed. It flew the first time for a few months in my barracks room and then went back in the box until recently where it is displayed along with my other collected flags in my hangar. I think the box is worth more than the flag ;-}
At the national level I believe the federal gov't continues to hold ALL captured battle flags from the Civil War and have repeatedly refused to return them to the states. I support this action for now.
I might be wrong but the Civil War section of Arlington cemetery is devoid of the same symbols. I also support this unflinchingly.
Now to my birth state and the current placement of the Confederate flag at the capitol. Once again I may be wrong but I believe the flag is situated at a memorial to the Confederate War dead, those who actually died in conflict. To me that is a change to the purpose for which it was first returned to the capitol and much more appropriate. This is an issue for the state alone to resolve and no one else, most especially the current racist groups, white or otherwise.
Protocol dictates NO flag to be flown higher on a staff than the American flag. In the case of this fixed flag it should have been removed during the period of mourning and a large black ribbon afixed to the pole. I hope this will be addressed and corrected.
Across the South are cemeteries with Confederate War dead, most who died of plain old age. I could be wrong again but Mr. Room likely took his picture with a Confederate flag at one of those cemeteries during a recent Remembrance/Memorial Day. I feel the groups who tend to the details of maintaining these graves should adopt a time frame for the graves to be decorated which should coincide with how it is done at Arlington. The states should make the suggestion and the individual municipalities should give this proper consideration. I would go as far as to suggest teens be involved as part of a history project.
Like all anarchists, Mr. Room failed in his attempt at a race war; or did he? Two churches have been burned this past week. How many more and why? Could it be a backlash to the demands about the Confederate flag? If so then as long as the current controversy remains heated it will likely continue as it did in the '60s. If we want this effort to be a true failure then ALL parties need to step back and be pragmatic toward the resolution. Rest assured whatever it might be it won't satisfy everyone.
And the president needs to keep his mouth shut if he is going to address only a segment of Americans with the pronoun "we". Has he forgotten he is OUR president. He was elected by AMERICANS of all color and affiliation.
I've gone overly long here but whatever your personal feelings, pro or con what is THE most important issue is how to deal with the hate.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2015, 02:51:49 PM »
Ironic that you criticize the President, when I thought his eulogy was all inclusive.  He spoke of "Grace' and the need for it and how the example of how the people that died and those families showed such great grace instead of reacting in hate. 

He is speaking for 'we' in suggesting that we as a country show more 'grace' and less hate.  We can learn a lot from the example of the folks in Charleston and in the grace shown by everyone in that city and the state in taking the opportunity to come together and not make it about hate.  The call to remove that flag at the capital. was done as part of that grace on the part of the Governor and the other politicians who saw a chance to open the door to talking about the issues and looking at the history.

The actions of the people of South Carolina starting with the victims and their families and extending to the majority of people there was all about grace.  You can't help but take great pride in their actions and find hope that we as a country might follow their lead.

Offline rr01

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2015, 03:03:16 PM »
The pronoun "we" I was referring to was in the sentence about the history of black opprssion, vis a vis not being allowed to have churches. The use of stats politicized what should have only been about the man. I stand by my comment.
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Offline Fearless Leader

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2015, 04:16:38 PM »
This is an excellent thread, and all participants are commented and thanked for their patients while communicating their thoughts.

One note to Guppy35 concerning a post that he feels has been edited: No posts have been edited from this thread....this would not be keeping with our mission statement. We want everyone to be heard!

I'm sorry for the interruption in the flow of the topic at hand, best wishes for a continued thought train.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2015, 05:32:23 PM »
This is an excellent thread, and all participants are commented and thanked for their patients while communicating their thoughts.

One note to Guppy35 concerning a post that he feels has been edited: No posts have been edited from this thread....this would not be keeping with our mission statement. We want everyone to be heard!

I'm sorry for the interruption in the flow of the topic at hand, best wishes for a continued thought train.

Not sure what happened then as I'd put some time into it.  Suffice to say it had to do with my sons.  Until my youngest, Matthew is allowed to walk the world the same as my oldest Andrew, these discussions and examinations of our history must continue and changes be made.  Despite being raised by the same parents in the same house and with the same values and expectations, Matthew is seen differently solely based on the color of his skin.   He's only 6 so he faces the world with me there to protect him.  But it scares me that when he is a teenager he may be seen as a threat or suspicious because of his color. 

I never thought much about this stuff until he dropped into our lives.  This stuff gets much more personal and important when it impacts on your child.  With that I've said my piece and appreciate that I ha e been allowed to say it


Offline rr01

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2015, 05:49:00 PM »
Might you allow me an observation. Our extended family has adopted kids from all nations and ethnicities from post WWII German "orphans" to the current kids within the foster system. Just raise your two sons as brothers and the rest will take care of itself. You will actually catch grief from both sides but this young man is YOUR son and nothing will change that. You are his Father and he will see through you much how life IS. No doubt he will endure the idiots but his character will come from you first & foremost. My very black cousin was adopted out of the foster system and while he has heard how he wasn't raised "black" he also wasn't raised where he came from. He knows all this and having been my cousin for over forty years his own black children are also my cousins. There has NEVER been any doubt about who his real family is and I have no doubt he is my cousin. I have no shame with him and this family dynamic has contributed to his own success. Don't worry TOO much because in reality the kids are more resiliant and attuned than we adults ;-}
Wonderful photos. I hope the pillow fights are relentless ;-}
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2015, 06:11:38 PM »
Andy was born in 83 and Matthew in 2008 so no pillow fights. Matthew is an uncle however to our first grandchild.  I appreciate the wisdom in your words.  I'm not at all worried about family.  It's the rest of the world that worries me :)

Offline M1Ashooter

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Re: The Disappearance of the Confederacy in America.
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2015, 07:52:00 PM »
My friend.  I learned in the Air Force that we all bleed red.  The color of a persons skin makes no difference to me.  It's was is inside of them that matters.

 

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